I don't know man. Do you think this contract is a good idea? I suppose it depends on how valuable you think roster spots are, because the Yankees have already exceeded Juan's WAR from last season with their additions, and those additions do not add up to $765M. Especially looking at Juan's fielding and baserunning numbers, which are going down and down and down, meaning he's going to have to spend most of this contract as a DH.
That's fine, but unless they're literally the best hitter in baseball, DHs do not win MVPs. They are not the best player on championship teams. You need a lot of support around a DH to win with one, or another star player that's even better. Think Manny Ramirez being the real star on the teams that David Ortiz gets credit for. With all this being known, do you think it's a good idea to give $700M and more to a DH? He won't be one immediately, but for most of the contract he will be, and to me it seems like a really big stretch to give that much money (and therefore commitment) to such a player.
I'm glad this race got too rich for my Blue Jays. This feels like a contract that has a high chance of killing what could've been a great era for the Mets, if even the slightest thing goes wrong. I don't think the loss of Soto will hurt the Yankees very much at all, and I think I'm going to believe the Red Sox being in on a big money player when I see it. They're not fooling anybody. This race was NY vs NY, and I'm not sure which side won it. The Mets got the best player, but the Yankees used their money to bring in more 2023 WAR.
I agree. This is way too much money for a player like Soto who will become a full-time DH in a few years. In addition, one injury could just completely derail this. This deal could become one of the worst in the league, much like Anthony Rendon's deal with the Angels.
I'm not trying to say they match, I'm trying to say Soto could very well end up being a similar case as Rendon, getting paid a ton of money to sit on the IL and only DH (I know Rendon also plays third)
I get DH, but why would Soto sit on the IL? For starters, every superstar gets onto the IL at least once in their career. Plus, Soto has never missed many games in a season. Not counting his rookie season or the 2020 season, he's missed only 37 games in total throughout his 8-year career. We all talk about Mike Trout as a superstar. He's being paid big too. During the same time as Soto, he's missed 488 games. That's about 13 times Soto's number.
I understand DH. I'm about to comment on Robbie's, so see my response there for DH.
I think one of the biggest problems in this Soto contract is his defense, but if you think about it, are any of the biggest stars being paid just for the defense they bring? Shohei Ohtani is being paid, $350 million for his bat and $350 million for his pitching skills, but that's the only guy. That is also the only reason the contract became $700 million.
I'm not defending the Mets for giving him $765 million. I agree with you (OMG IT FINALLY HAPPENED) that Soto is being overpaid. What I don't agree with you about is the reason. He isn't being overpaid because of defense. He's being overpaid because of his bat.
If you still don't understand what I mean, I'm just saying that Soto has a great bat (100's in flat-out every category), but his bat isn't worth that much.
It's all about the roster spot. It's funny how you brought up Ohtani, because this is the exact same argument, but backwards. People (including myself) argued that having one man fill one of the 13 position players and also one of the 13 pitchers would basically give the Dodgers a 27 man roster, and that's valuable. We can argue just how valuable roster flexibility is, but we can all agree that it's valuable. Full time DHs cause the opposite problem.
There's a reason that being a DH costs a player about a three WAR penalty under what they would've gotten if they played a position. Any position. The punishment in terms of roster flexibility is immense when rosters are so tight. If you have a full time DH, you still have to find eight additional (non-pitcher) full time starters. If your big hitter can play a position (even an unvaluable one like RF), you only have to find seven full time starters.
That's a big difference. It causes payroll issues, because you're paying nine starting players for eight starting spots. It makes it very difficult to give guys days off, because the DH spot is full all the time, and it limits your options for the next 15 years to only signing FAs that play good defence.
It's possible to build a good team around a full-time DH, but that DH either has to be literally the best hitter in the world (Edgar Martinez, Travis Hafner, Shohei Ohtani, etc.), or you have to have one of the best hitters in the world in addition to that full-time DH, like the Manny Ramirez David Ortiz situation in Boston, or Aaron Judge and Giancarlo Stanton right now. None of these things are impossible, but they're difficult to pull off. I'm not sure I'd want to lock my team into this balancing act for 15 years.
On most great teams, the DH is a roving position played by whoever is hot that day, whoever needs a day off that day, or whatever the case may be. I believe this is the best way to do it. FAs are not explicitly punished for their lack of defence. They're punished for making teams entirely unable to use the DH position in this way.
As far as Soto's bat, we're on the same side there too. It's great, but is it great enough? To make this contract worth it, I'll guesstimate that he's going to have to be top five in OPS+ for at least half of the seasons. I'm not sure he can live up to those requirements either. If he can play defence (even bad defence) this all changes, but since I'm unconvinced that he will be able to play defence even at a poor level for much longer, that puts extraordinary pressure on his bat to make this contract worth it.
I don't know man. Do you think this contract is a good idea? I suppose it depends on how valuable you think roster spots are, because the Yankees have already exceeded Juan's WAR from last season with their additions, and those additions do not add up to $765M. Especially looking at Juan's fielding and baserunning numbers, which are going down and down and down, meaning he's going to have to spend most of this contract as a DH.
That's fine, but unless they're literally the best hitter in baseball, DHs do not win MVPs. They are not the best player on championship teams. You need a lot of support around a DH to win with one, or another star player that's even better. Think Manny Ramirez being the real star on the teams that David Ortiz gets credit for. With all this being known, do you think it's a good idea to give $700M and more to a DH? He won't be one immediately, but for most of the contract he will be, and to me it seems like a really big stretch to give that much money (and therefore commitment) to such a player.
I'm glad this race got too rich for my Blue Jays. This feels like a contract that has a high chance of killing what could've been a great era for the Mets, if even the slightest thing goes wrong. I don't think the loss of Soto will hurt the Yankees very much at all, and I think I'm going to believe the Red Sox being in on a big money player when I see it. They're not fooling anybody. This race was NY vs NY, and I'm not sure which side won it. The Mets got the best player, but the Yankees used their money to bring in more 2023 WAR.
I guess we'll see.
I agree. This is way too much money for a player like Soto who will become a full-time DH in a few years. In addition, one injury could just completely derail this. This deal could become one of the worst in the league, much like Anthony Rendon's deal with the Angels.
I don't think Anthony Rendon and Juan Soto match at all...
I'm not trying to say they match, I'm trying to say Soto could very well end up being a similar case as Rendon, getting paid a ton of money to sit on the IL and only DH (I know Rendon also plays third)
I get DH, but why would Soto sit on the IL? For starters, every superstar gets onto the IL at least once in their career. Plus, Soto has never missed many games in a season. Not counting his rookie season or the 2020 season, he's missed only 37 games in total throughout his 8-year career. We all talk about Mike Trout as a superstar. He's being paid big too. During the same time as Soto, he's missed 488 games. That's about 13 times Soto's number.
I understand DH. I'm about to comment on Robbie's, so see my response there for DH.
I think one of the biggest problems in this Soto contract is his defense, but if you think about it, are any of the biggest stars being paid just for the defense they bring? Shohei Ohtani is being paid, $350 million for his bat and $350 million for his pitching skills, but that's the only guy. That is also the only reason the contract became $700 million.
I'm not defending the Mets for giving him $765 million. I agree with you (OMG IT FINALLY HAPPENED) that Soto is being overpaid. What I don't agree with you about is the reason. He isn't being overpaid because of defense. He's being overpaid because of his bat.
If you still don't understand what I mean, I'm just saying that Soto has a great bat (100's in flat-out every category), but his bat isn't worth that much.
I went in circles, didn't I?
It's all about the roster spot. It's funny how you brought up Ohtani, because this is the exact same argument, but backwards. People (including myself) argued that having one man fill one of the 13 position players and also one of the 13 pitchers would basically give the Dodgers a 27 man roster, and that's valuable. We can argue just how valuable roster flexibility is, but we can all agree that it's valuable. Full time DHs cause the opposite problem.
There's a reason that being a DH costs a player about a three WAR penalty under what they would've gotten if they played a position. Any position. The punishment in terms of roster flexibility is immense when rosters are so tight. If you have a full time DH, you still have to find eight additional (non-pitcher) full time starters. If your big hitter can play a position (even an unvaluable one like RF), you only have to find seven full time starters.
That's a big difference. It causes payroll issues, because you're paying nine starting players for eight starting spots. It makes it very difficult to give guys days off, because the DH spot is full all the time, and it limits your options for the next 15 years to only signing FAs that play good defence.
It's possible to build a good team around a full-time DH, but that DH either has to be literally the best hitter in the world (Edgar Martinez, Travis Hafner, Shohei Ohtani, etc.), or you have to have one of the best hitters in the world in addition to that full-time DH, like the Manny Ramirez David Ortiz situation in Boston, or Aaron Judge and Giancarlo Stanton right now. None of these things are impossible, but they're difficult to pull off. I'm not sure I'd want to lock my team into this balancing act for 15 years.
On most great teams, the DH is a roving position played by whoever is hot that day, whoever needs a day off that day, or whatever the case may be. I believe this is the best way to do it. FAs are not explicitly punished for their lack of defence. They're punished for making teams entirely unable to use the DH position in this way.
As far as Soto's bat, we're on the same side there too. It's great, but is it great enough? To make this contract worth it, I'll guesstimate that he's going to have to be top five in OPS+ for at least half of the seasons. I'm not sure he can live up to those requirements either. If he can play defence (even bad defence) this all changes, but since I'm unconvinced that he will be able to play defence even at a poor level for much longer, that puts extraordinary pressure on his bat to make this contract worth it.
I love it and I completely agree.
Congrats New York Mest!
R.I.P Juan Soto
Cause of Death: Ruined his career by signing with the Mets